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It is absolutely not french anything, but instead, french and english both decend from latin.

English decending from french you say! The nerve! (I assure you, my 6th grade english teacher would correct you thusly)



English does not descend from Latin. It descends from Old English, a language that is entirely unrelated to Latin besides both being Indo-European, and has been influenced to a substantial degree by Norman French (which does descend from Latin) since the 11th century.

At least that is the conventional view. Apparently, according to this author, it actually descends from French. But that is a very fringe take.


The conventional view is that the aristocracy spoke French and the hoi poloi spoke old English.

This is why modern english is a mix.


The author does not actually make this claim, he only does tongue in cheek to show that Norman has a much larger influenced on the evolution of English vocabulary than usually thought.


This is right on point. I read this book recently, by coincidence, and it's funny and fascinating at the same time (at least for someone who speaks both English and French).


English was Germanic - we get our Latin influence from Old French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_French_on_English


I see the French have been very busy with articles such as this.

Clearly an attempt to take the shine off of "that sub language english" which keeps pestering their ears.

From what I was repeatedly taught by my English, english teacher, all the latin loanwords came from when the Romans were hanging around the Isles. "They left more than walls!", she'd say.

Take care now, lest her ghost rise from the grave to correct your slanders against her beloved english.


French had several hundred years of established literary tradition when English was still 'descending'.

Not that it matters, given that we are talking about this in English, which has become the lingua franca in an amusing twist of fate, thanks to the East India Company.


Beowulf, the earliest major work of English literature, is from somewhere between the 8th and 11th centuries. French certainly did not have "several hundred years of established literary tradition" by that time, even if you pick the latter date.


La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland) is dated to between 1129 and 1165. It resembles modern French much more than Beowulf resembles modern English. Few English speakers today could read Beowulf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Roland

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_de_Roland


This is a great example of moving the goalposts re the original (false) point that a previous comment made about French having a longer literary history than English.

If you’ve got a specific agenda, say x > y, you can be very selective about success criteria to suit yourself.

In this particular case of English and French, the reality is that few modern French speakers can read the Song of Roland. “Resembles x much more” is pretty irrelevant because it cherry-picks similarities while glossing over differences. One can equally say Old English’s “and forgyf us ure gyltas” is pretty readable, but really you’re scraping the bottom of the argument barrel.

Also glossing over an older literary tradition because the language mutated in response to a new political reality (conquest) is ... curious.


These are the first 5 lines of Beowulf:

Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum

þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon

hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Oft Scyld Scéfing sceaþena þréatum

monegum maégþum meodosetla oftéah

It's a long stretch to say it's the same language as modern English, so shouldn't be counted as "literature in the English language".

It could however count as literature written by the English people.

For a comparison, these are the first 5 lines of Chanson de Roland

CARLES li reis, nostre emperere magnes,

Set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne:

Tresqu’en la mer cunquist la tere altaigne.

N’i ad castel ki devant lui remaigne;

Mur ne citet n’i est remés a fraindre,

Relative to modern French and English, the French of Chanson de Roland is comparable to the English of Chaucer.


I don't think it's moving the goalposts to say that something understandable by modern French speakers has an older literary tradition than something understandable by modern English speakers. You can call what we speak today "English" but it barely resembles the language used in Beowulf.


You’re entitled to your opinion. All I’ll say is that in the context of the bald fact (French has an older literary tradition than English) presented by a previous commenter, “understandable by modern speakers” is moving the goalposts. In my opinion of course.

Also

> something understandable by modern French speakers

The Song of Roland, used as an example in a previous comment, doesn’t qualify, and actually is yet another reason why this line of argument is pretty sad.


The term "Old English" is completely misleading in this context given how distant modern English is from that language. Both were spoken in England, that's about it. Applying the same logic to "France", should we then consider Gallo-Roman works like Ausonius's Mosella (c. 370 CE) to be "French" literature?

The Beowulf manuscript dates from around 975 CE and is written in what might be better termed Anglo-Saxon. How much can you understand from this random sentence: "þa me þæt gelærdon leode mine, þa selestan, snotere ceorlas"? ("So my vassals advised me well…) I personally can't understand a single word or even relate it in any way to the English I know.

On the other hand, the Sequence of Saint Eulalia was composed in "Old French" in 880 BCE and seems rather intelligible to me. I also just took a random sentence from the Chanson de Roland (c. 1100 BC) and can understand all of it: "Seignurs, vos en ireiz. Branches d’olive en voz mains portereiz, Si me direz a Carlemagne le rei Pur le soen Deu qu’il ait mercit de mei." I'd even go so far as to say that's closer to modern French than Shakespearean English despite being written in Anglo-Norman … Which also means it should probably count as being English literature if Beowulf qualifies…

I guess the lesson here is simply to remember that reality is always a lot more granular than we first expect and that any sweeping judgements on languages, countries, etc. over the span of millennia make very little sense. By that criteria, the linked article was pure clickbait to begin with.


Fair enough!


Well if you count Old English you might as well count Latin for French too.


Heh. English actually has an older written tradition than French.

Not that it’s a competition or anything. But it’s interesting to see people make assumptions about easily-looked-up stuff.


Old English is pretty unintelligible by modern English speakers though. Middle English much more so, but wasn't that already French-influenced?


You might want to review the influence of William the conqueror on the English language.


You mean, Guillaume le Conquérant ?


snortèd


How fitting for that bastard to be the one who bastardized our language!!


> french and english both de[s]cend from latin

no




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